Deus Ex Machina

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Jul 06, 2012 12:15 PM

"You have a most clever way of creating incredibly ingenious and complex solutions to problems that never should have existed in the first place." -My Ex-wife

This project has been almost a year of thinking, searching, and brainstorming about my desires and goals for my future automotive needs. When I finally settled on getting my 2nd mid-80's BMW (my first was a e30 325is), I immediately went e28. After picking up a 1985 535i from a fellow member, I began first by realizing that the motor needed a head rebuild. That got me thinking about what I really wanted out of the car. This is what I settled on:

The end-state goal: a rock-solid reliable, daily driven 535iT with around 400hp and "good economy" (looking to improve economy when not WOT, currently about 24mpg, but its not required). The power is just an arbitrary number, to be honest. If I'm in the 20% window around that number, I'll be content. This car won't ever see the track, except to park it as a spectator.

The concept: A 2002Tii motor made 1300+ hp on boost (1980's BMW F1 motor), but it was rebuilt constantly. Top fuel motors are designed to fail at the end of the strip in order to max out power in the run. So, if we dial down the required hp, but leave the torture test improvements, we should see a very reliable motor with significantly more power than stock.

Two key areas of concern: heat evacuation and air flow. Heat is a destroyer of automobile engines. Its partially why we use ceramic-coated chambers, water injection, intercoolers, and cold air intakes. We need to get the heat out of the motor & bay as quickly as possible, and push as much cooler air,oil, and water through the motor as possible to help keep the temps down. Not controlling the heat eliminates my ability to meet the primary objective.

Regarding air flow, the better the flow of any system, the more efficient the system is. The more efficient the system, the more power it will create at a given temperature, as it will have to struggle less to produce the same work. This is key, as hp is a measurement of work. If we stay modest, and keep hp constant, we should see less heat in the motor, and therefore, potentially more reliability. As such, we will focus on reducing potential restrictions and use design mechanisms that encourage air flow in and out of the motor.

Success of the build will be measured at the completion of a 40-60 day sabbatical tour of the US, where every state will be visited. 0 break downs related to the motor during the trip= success.

When I get more time, I'll talk about what I've already decided, how I came to those conclusions, and the deals I've already snagged.

Coldswede · Post by **Coldswede** » Jul 06, 2012 12:23 PM

Almost any turbo car on the board can attain the stated hp goal. Okay, maybe not the pure E23 745 adaptions

The real problem is getting traction to apply the power, not building it.

I love your "Ex's" quote! I might have to steal it sometime.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Jul 06, 2012 12:57 PM

Traction is a consideration I've yet to really address. There are a number of way I used to control extra power, but I'm not sure they apply at this scale. I do know launch control is NOT an option: the speed sensor is in the drive train.

This is an area I haven't done a lot of research. What options do we have that work?

Post by **mooseheadm5** » Jul 06, 2012 1:32 PM

mremingtonwilson wrote:I do know launch control is NOT an option

Not true.

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en ... on-control

It gets speed from the ABS sensors individually.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Jul 06, 2012 1:47 PM

How interesting! I was only considering the rudimentary addition, and somehow I had forgotten the e28 did have ABS (I read it once, but had yet to take the brakes apart).

This is a really interesting concept, which could be really helpful on a DD car where it rains very often! I'll have to do more digging.

Thanks for squaring me away!

Duke · Post by **Duke** » Jul 06, 2012 2:11 PM

mooseheadm5 wrote:
mremingtonwilson wrote:I do know launch control is NOT an option
Not true.

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en ... on-control

It gets speed from the ABS sensors individually.

I installed a RaceLogic in my M535i. Has traction control, launch control and full throttle shifting.....all fully adjustable. If you do not have ABS, they have sensors you can install for the rear wheels.

Xenocide · Post by **Xenocide** » Jul 06, 2012 3:10 PM

Launch control and flat shifting are built in to megasquirt, provided you hook up a clutch switch. IIRC some guys were playing around with traction control too using the ABS tone rings with megasquirt too.

clongo · Post by **clongo** » Jul 06, 2012 4:30 PM

Coldswede wrote:Almost any turbo car on the board can attain the stated hp goal. Okay, maybe not the pure E23 745 adaptions

We will see once i get to the dyno... though my setup is quite different from a 745i now, lol. (I know i probably won't hit 400 rwhp... though i am hoping for over 400 rwtq!

)

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Jul 06, 2012 11:17 PM

Xenocide wrote:IIRC some guys were playing around with traction control too using the ABS tone rings with megasquirt too.

What ever came of that project? Given that I'll likely be going MS, that seems a little cheaper than a stand-alone interrupter unit.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Jul 07, 2012 2:31 AM

"Know Yourself and know your enemy. One thousand Battles, one thousand victories." -Sun Tsu

The History: In May I picked up a car I'd been drooling over since I was a kid:

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=103753&highlight=

My g/f was kind enough to pick it up in LA and make its way back to Portland, where it currently is residing.

Upon arrival, several under-reported discrepancies were found:

1) the brakes were useless (culprit: brake accumulator, replaced)
2) the transmission was hard to shift (still under observation and diagnostics
3) the engine has a slight miss at regular intervals
4) the valvetrain needs work (evidenced during its first visit tune-up)
5) the body generally needed a lot of attention (much more than the pictures demonstrated and the PO led me to believe)
6) front seats were completely shot
7) the A/C went out as soon it was bought (grrr)
8) the Speedo and SI board went out w/ a month of purchase. (replaced with good 528e cluster w/ gear replacement).

3 & 4 are likely related, but unconfirmed (ignoring issue at the moment, given seldom use and general availability of power in the motor).

Even under these current conditions, the vehicle was still driveable (though we gave about 3x the normal stopping distance) from LA to PDX and round trip from PDX to SAC.

OTE, I was still rather disappointed when I came home on leave to see a car in this condition. I had thought I gotten a better deal. I was flabergasted when the diagnosis that it needed head work came through. I was hoping to keep an original build for the car, and just enjoy some maintenance free miles. I vascilated during my leave to either just throw the car out and find a better deal or to rework the head. Eventually, I decided that if I was going to shell out the cash for a new head, I should consider refreshing the entire motor. That, following the classical "well for only x% more, I can get better performance parts and more power," eventually came into a looking into building a high comp. motor. As I did research on it on this forum, I quickly realized that a high comp. motor would drive like my H22 Prelude... fun, but not fun at the pump, and you always sound like an a-hole driving at 3500-6000 rpm in a car with a high, narrow power band, as well as kill your economy. It wasn't what I really wanted from this car. I really wanted more of a highway saloon car done with connoseur's taste than a car built for the track. So, after scrapping that idea, I introduced myself to the FI forum, and began researching my options again. Eventually, I settled on building an FI motor to suit my needs.

From reading online, I've found that many of the FI builds here suffer from problems that I feel could have been avoided with proper planning and funding. While it seems that many pay attention to the turbo itself (proper oil flow, proper waste gates & BOVs, etc.), there appear to be several builds that only paid lip service to the motor itself, and their completed build suffered from reliability. Desiring to have a rock-solid reliable build, I wanted to make sure that these errors were not repeated in my build. As such, I began to gather understanding on what options I have available to me.

In the meantime, I had a good "get to know her" moment: took off all the plastic bits, and polished out all the paint oxidation and trash. I was surprised to see just how much abuse the paint had in it and how much shine I was able to bring out of it. There are still some sun spots in it, but its beautiful none the less. Here are the before and after pics of the deck lid.

NOTE: its important to know that 1) all my tools are motorcycle specific, and 2) they're on the other coast. Essentially, I'm operating without anything, and tooling up would only increase costs. I haven't ruled out a lot of self work, but there's an increased cost, as well as learning curve.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Jul 09, 2012 8:46 AM

9 Jul 12:

After a very informative set of emails back and forth with fellow member Ken H., I've remembered a key area of concern that used to be the bread & butter on my e30: brakes, suspension, and drive terrain. I hadn't really considered upgrading at the time, though I usually prefer to have a good suspension over a stellar motor. However, with the need to rework the head, I got tunnel visioned. Note to self: big picture!

As such, I very quickly reviewed the upgrades/repairs already in place: stainless lines, a new brake accumulator, M5 sway bars, 750 thrust arm bushings, 16" e38 wheels, e24 rear tower brace, and a front tower brace as well. Many of these upgrades were done a little over 10 years ago, so I need to go back over them once again and ensure that they are good to go. I also go an exhaustive list of stuff to check over before I move into the transmission and motor.

In the meantime, I set my eyes on the on the task of upgrading the brakes. I read the M535i forum, our threads, and even a white paper on the the subject relevant to the e28. The results of this led me down a path toward the e31 front brakes (4 caliper pots, 324mm) and the e34 540i rears (single caliper pot, 300mm, vented). After all, if given a choice in stopping power, there really isn't a choice, I'd rather stop as quickly as possible. The only compromises going this route is additional unsprung weight of the brakes and losing a potentially more brake balance by electing the fronts (the e34 540i brakes offer the best maneuvering balance, but could also yeild an unstable driving condition for unexperienced drivers, according to the texts). I suspect that the master cylinder will not push enough fluid to the fronts, and a larger master will be needed. I'm not certain which would be my best choices, or if I'll need them at all. Suggestions?

Post by **mooseheadm5** » Jul 09, 2012 9:50 AM

The car will do just fine with E34 brakes all around. Using the stock master works quite well, but installing the E34 master will result in a firmer pedal, though it is slightly more difficult to modulate because of the shorter travel (because it is larger.) 840 4 pots are fantastic, but expensive.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Jul 09, 2012 10:11 AM

I've read about the lack of modulation when upgrading the MC. I think it may be something I may need to do later in the build, after I get a feel for just how my pedal feels with the new part hung.

Is it generally accepted practice to rebuild the brakes, or do used BMW calipers hold up to time pretty well?

Post by **mooseheadm5** » Jul 09, 2012 10:13 AM

It never hurts to rebuild your brake calipers.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Jul 16, 2012 12:47 PM

I've just concluded negotiations on a set of 850Csi brake calipers (4 pot, 324mm) that were not technically on market, and also closed the deal on a set of non-slotted E34 rear brakes. Nothing is in yet, but hopefully by 5erWest, everything will be in its new home. When I get home, I'll see to rebuilding the calipers and selecting new pads/rotors/hardware (should the rears also need it).

Thanks to wkohler and blue_mgb! Your parts have found a good home!

I'm now looking toward the bouncy things on the car. As such, I've done some reading and the general consensus is that the best stuff isn't available new. As such, I'm going to have to settle with something either more aggressive for my tastes, or just bite into the M Tech set of springs, as I'm not terribly interested in buying used hardware here. I'd actually never considered having the shocks/struts revalved to match springs (thanks El Guapo), but its sounds like the best thing to do, even if it is expensive.... more on that later.

Golosok · Post by **Golosok** » Jul 19, 2012 11:06 AM

mooseheadm5 wrote:
mremingtonwilson wrote:I do know launch control is NOT an option
Not true.

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en ... on-control

It gets speed from the ABS sensors individually.

A little late, but this ECU has Launch nd Traction Control built in

http://www.dtafast.co.uk/S_80_PRO.htm

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Jul 19, 2012 11:18 AM

NICE! Thanks Golosok!

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Oct 07, 2012 12:21 PM

OK. So, I now have the donor motor. Hell of a trip. Almost 48 hours without sleep. Beautiful detour though the redwoods. Would do it again in a heartbeat.

Gonna leave the crank in and the B35 head together. Don't have the tools to pull them apart yet (the main nuts.) The bearings all look good, some slight scuffing on the skirts, but the hones look good. Lots of crosses visible. There is a little rust in the #5 near the chamber, so a bore might be necessary. Nothing down the wall though. The piston slid out with effort, but wiping it down helped a lot. We'll see.

Time to go get them blueprinted. Fingers crossed that boring won't be necessary. I don't wanna fool with over-sizing pistons. I've got too many questions left open as it is.

Side note: fastcrs, the headlight swap was cool. The yellow at night takes some getting used to. Definitely beautiful! Hope you are enjoying the Euros.

Pics of the motor at home.

Xenocide · Post by **Xenocide** » Oct 07, 2012 4:06 PM

mremingtonwilson wrote:
Xenocide wrote:IIRC some guys were playing around with traction control too using the ABS tone rings with megasquirt too.
What ever came of that project? Given that I'll likely be going MS, that seems a little cheaper than a stand-alone interrupter unit.

Sorry, I didn't notice you asked this. I don't know, I just saw the project in passing. A quick google turned up a little info though

http://m54megasquirt3.blogspot.com/2011 ... ntrol.html

It's obviously quite a ways from completion, you'd be developing as much as you'd be implementing by the looks of it.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Oct 07, 2012 6:17 PM

Xenocide wrote: Sorry, I didn't notice you asked this. I don't know, I just saw the project in passing. A quick google turned up a little info though

http://m54megasquirt3.blogspot.com/2011 ... ntrol.html

It's obviously quite a ways from completion, you'd be developing as much as you'd be implementing by the looks of it.

Cool. Thanks for the info.!

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Oct 08, 2012 2:02 PM

UPDATE: Block, head, pistons, etc. at the local machine shop getting cleaned and inspected. Specifically, they're at Bearing Service Co. in Portland. Progress for now.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Oct 31, 2012 7:20 PM

So, while I've been waiting for the motor to get mic'ed out, I've been hand polishing the valve cover gasket. Not the best job, but pretty good for a first ever attempt from cast aluminium.

About "halfway" through, realizing that I have to start over because of mistakes made.

"Finished" product. Probably not. Might go through it all over again and get a full mirror off it.

Still a heluvalot better looking than the cast.

Ken H. · Post by **Ken H.** » Oct 31, 2012 7:40 PM

Looks 10/10 as it stands. A full mirror is a bit too bling.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Nov 12, 2012 2:41 PM

Over the Friday, UPS delivered my brake order from Autohaus, so I finally got a chance to install the calipers on the car. As I mentioned earlier, I'm sliding on the 850Ci Brembo set up front and a e34 530i rear set. I seemed to be mistaken regarding the rear set I purchased being a 540i set, as the rears were non-vented. After comparing the list on Autohaus extensively, I couldn't find a non-vented 540i rear in the e34 body. Maybe they exist, but the 530i rears were the precise replacement that the calipers and matched the original rotors exactly.

My awesome organization of the parts at work here:

Comparing the Front rotor diameters:

The rear were only about 10mm larger than stock. As you can see, they come a little closer to the lip of the inside cover, but just barely:

The front (OE size):

The front (Brembo size):

No one had previously mentioned the inside covers being precisely the same diameter as the rotor. This created a small issue, as the rotor made contact almost 360 around with the dust cover. That was quickly resolved with the use of a handy rubber mallet.

My initial result of this swap is very much more stopping power, but a bit softer in the pedal than OE. I attribute the difference in pedal response to the increased volume the master cylinder must move as a result of increasing the piston volume in the brakes. After all, it is now a 10 piston braking system.

I've decided to attempt to acclimate, but if I really don't enjoy the "Cadillac" brakes, I'll upgrade the master.

Also, OEM calipers and brackets now available.

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Nov 12, 2012 3:34 PM

OE brakes, and everything else not remaining on the car are being sold here: http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=110974

Post by **Nebraska_e28** » Nov 12, 2012 3:40 PM

Does the 850Ci Brembo setup increase or decrease unspring weight over the e32 route?

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Nov 12, 2012 4:36 PM

Good question. I don't have weight comparison specifics yet, but I'm confident that the e31 850Ci set up is heavier. My set up has 4 pistons per caliper that seemed to weight about 15lbs per wheel (guessing) vs 1 piston caliper with carrier from the 750i. Also, The 850Ci rotors are 324mm x 30mm rotor vs 300mm x 20mm on the 750i. I'd also speculate that the 850Ci pads are larger, but this is also just a guess. Fortunately, the build isn't requiring 17" tires, and it won't be racing.

winfred · Post by **winfred** » Nov 12, 2012 11:01 PM

did the 4 pot fronts on my e24 and id say the calipers are a bit lighter and that may or may not offset the heavier rotors, the total may be less then the all steel stock set up. i did the 25mm master and vented v8/12 e32 rear brakes/control arms to complete the basic package

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Nov 15, 2012 9:08 PM

Winfred:

How did the master work out? I'm having a little remorse about the pedal play and am considering a master swap. Which vehicle has the 25mm and were there mods you had to perform, or was it just a R&R?

mremingtonwilson · Post by **mremingtonwilson** » Nov 19, 2012 3:30 PM

Pistons ordered and I decided to rebuild to oil pump, so I ordered those parts as well. In the meantime, I've been prepping the intake. The S-38 TBs cleaned up well. Now I just need to synchronize them. The Plenum has been cleaned, blasted, sanded, and has a nice coat of primer on it. In about a week, I'll wet sand it, and the apply the color.

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Deus Ex Machina

Deus Ex Machina

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