535 Manual Trans Shifting Issues

[Profile36]

Hey guys, wanted to bounce this one off of you, perhaps some of you have seen this before.

Backstory:
Purchased a 190k 87 535i, b34 with 260/6 manual, with a sloppy shifter, had typical wear you would expect out of the mileage. Drove it a decent amount without noticing any shifting issues, except for the horrible play.

To address the shifter slop and maintain the driveline I performed the following:
1. Changed trans fluid from what smelled like ATF to MTL
2. Replaced shifter with an Autosolutions shifter and all of the associated bushings
3. Bled the clutch fluid line
4. Installed clutch pedal reinforcement bracket

Results/Main symptoms:
1. Shifter slop is eliminated.
2. Difficulty shifting into any gear at a standstill which seems to have increased from prior to doing the work, no impact on temp, cold or hot (possible placebo effect to how it was prior to the work being done, the shifter changes the feel lots making it hard to compare). Once the car is in motion and synchronizers are spinning, it is no longer an issue.
3. Clutch pedal stiffness has not changed at all, but remains quite a bit heavier when compared to a 6 cylinder e36 or f30 car, its noticeably heavier, but if it had no problems shifting, I would consider it normal.

I tried pumping the clutch pedal multiple times prior to shifting into any gear to try to rule out any hydraulic issues, no success. Im pondering this one pretty hard, especially due to the age of the car, anything is likely to be suspect.

Based on the stiffness of the clutch, its possible the pressure plate is asking for retirement. As far as I know it is original. The clutch grabs well, except it does feel a bit on off, similar to what you would expect out of a non factory 6 puck clutch.

As much fun as it is to pull these transmissions, I figured I would post this to see what sort of resolutions you guys have seen on these old timers.

My gut is telling me to try the following before taking the trans down: change clutch master cylinder and possibly the slave, change MTL to ATF, swap Autosolutions shifter to something more OEM, prior to dropping the trans.

What would you do?

/rant
-M

[Mike W.]

I voted for a new clutch, that should lighten the pedal feel, although it's not fair to compare it to either an E30 or 36 those are lower torque engines so tend towards a lighter clutch feel. But I don't think you're going to change the difficulty getting into gear at a standstill by anything other than a tranny rebuild. The syncros or the carriers have points on them for them to easily engage. My guess is those points are worn into flats, so you need things to be better aligned to get it into gear. Have you tried pulling back towards or ideally into second before you shift into first? That's a standard procedure for a high mileage tranny, and one that's easy to get used to. Even 3rd or 4th, just something. Unless you're really jonesing to spend money on a tranny rebuild, I think that will make things work just fine.

Or and this is an easy fix, is there any clutch drag at all going into gear? Is it hard to get in every single time, and is there any creep, in gear, clutch pedal to the floor? That would indicate a clutch hydraulic problem, that the clutch isn't fully disengaging.

[Profile36]

I voted for a new clutch, that should lighten the pedal feel, although it's not fair to compare it to either an E30 or 36 those are lower torque engines so tend towards a lighter clutch feel. But I don't think you're going to change the difficulty getting into gear at a standstill by anything other than a tranny rebuild. The syncros or the carriers have points on them for them to easily engage. My guess is those points are worn into flats, so you need things to be better aligned to get it into gear. Have you tried pulling back towards or ideally into second before you shift into first? That's a standard procedure for a high mileage tranny, and one that's easy to get used to. Even 3rd or 4th, just something. Unless you're really jonesing to spend money on a tranny rebuild, I think that will make things work just fine.

Or and this is an easy fix, is there any clutch drag at all going into gear? Is it hard to get in every single time, and is there any creep, in gear, clutch pedal to the floor? That would indicate a clutch hydraulic problem, that the clutch isn't fully disengaging.

Thanks Mike for your input. I know all those moves a bit too well for my liking, 2nd before first, pump the clutch a few times, etc . This thing is definitely asking for some help. The way I’m dealing with it now is by gradually and slowly, sometimes trying multiple times to slip it into 1st or 2nd. Since I’ve started noticing this as an issue, I only drove it a couple times, it’s not an immediate concern .

The creeping does not seem to occur and I’m not feeling much drag when trying to shift from a standstill, but I think the drag is usually more apparent when you apply more force on the sifter, I understand this thing doesn’t like me right now, so I’m being very gentle on those synchros

My gut is telling me to try a master cylinder. It’s just that they are such a rare failure, I don’t remember the last time hearing of one going bad. All in all it probably is just a pressure plate that’s stiff as a board by now. Thanks for lending me your thoughts!

[turbodan]

The aftermarket shifter will increase effort. That's part of it.

I would do more testing before condemning the clutch. You can get the car on a lift or a set of jackstands, have someone push the clutch in, and see what kind of effort is required to rotate the driveshaft by hand.

The driveline has significant inertia but you should be able to turn the driveshaft without overcoming a great deal of friction. If not, the clutch may be dragging.

[Profile36]

The aftermarket shifter will increase effort. That's part of it.

I would do more testing before condemning the clutch. You can get the car on a lift or a set of jackstands, have someone push the clutch in, and see what kind of effort is required to rotate the driveshaft by hand.

The driveline has significant inertia but you should be able to turn the driveshaft without overcoming a great deal of friction. If not, the clutch may be dragging.

Thanks Dan, yeah I use the z3 short-shifters in most of my BMWs, I have a general idea of how much more effort a shifter with a shorter throw should generate. I have seen a few people displeased by the autosolutions shifters, which made me think, maybe on an 40 year old trans its a bit too aggressive. Still dont think its enough to make it misbehave this much, but maybe others have seen it too?

I like the test you suggested, and in theory while not as precise, it could be performed on a steep driveway as well without the need for removal of the exhaust and dust shield to get to the driveshaft. But help me think through this. Testing the resistance of the driveline past the transmission will only help me decouple the problem partially by determining if its the synchros or pressure plate/hydraulic issue. Right? If the driveshaft has resistance to it while clutched in and in gear, you will not know if its the hydraulics which are not pulling the pressure plate back enough, or if the pressure plate itself is not moving enough. However, if there is no drag, one should conclude that the synchros are just worn on the trans? One other thing which I vaguely remember doing is, jacking up the rear on jack stands and seeing if the clutch is pressed in and the car in gear, do the wheels keep turning, as that would indicated the clutch dragging as well, and I recall that being perfectly fine, the wheels spun half a turn while the sycnrhos helped mesh the shaft speeds, and then stopped spinning.

I think at this point I should just go work on it instead of typing all these word salads, but it is winter and Im not working on anything in the garage expect motorcycles until March lol

-M

[turbodan]

Testing the resistance of the driveline past the transmission will only help me decouple the problem partially by determining if its the synchros or pressure plate/hydraulic issue. Right?

Correct. If the driveshaft turns without excessive effort then you can confirm that the clutch is properly releasing. That would verify proper hydraulic and mechanical operation of the systems involved.

Synchro problems usually manifest as crunchy gear changes. If it shifts well going down the road it would be unlikely that you have an internal gearbox issue.

How does it shift with the engine off? Some gears will not engage of course but usually with the clutch pushed in the input shaft can budge as needed.

[Mike W.]

So what does the clutch pedal feel like? I know, stiff, and with the helper spring in there it masks things some, but does it feel like it releases or not?

[Profile36]

Testing the resistance of the driveline past the transmission will only help me decouple the problem partially by determining if its the synchros or pressure plate/hydraulic issue. Right?

Correct. If the driveshaft turns without excessive effort then you can confirm that the clutch is properly releasing. That would verify proper hydraulic and mechanical operation of the systems involved.

Synchro problems usually manifest as crunchy gear changes. If it shifts well going down the road it would be unlikely that you have an internal gearbox issue.

How does it shift with the engine off? Some gears will not engage of course but usually with the clutch pushed in the input shaft can budge as needed.

Thanks for confirming, the unfortunate part is I still won’t be able to tell if it’s one or the other, but at least it will tell me if there is unwanted drag.

Right I know this is not the strongest version of these getrags and it shifts pretty well once it’s in motion, it’s just being a bugger from a dead stop.

With the engine off its buttery smooth, just the way it should be. What does that tell you, just that the shifter is ok?

So what does the clutch pedal feel like? I know, stiff, and with the helper spring in there it masks things some, but does it feel like it releases or not?

Pedal is about 20% stiffer than an e36 or 30% when compared to a f30 335i. What it feels like to me is like it’s not releasing all the way, but that could still be the stubborn shifter, or more likely the components mentioned before, hydraulics or pressure plate.

I have to pay attention to the cross traffic lights like a hawk to make sure I have a head start, it take about 3 attempts and a good 10 seconds to slip it into first. Doesn’t sound like much but it’s enough for people to wonder why Im not just driving off, as one should.

I don’t know of any good way to test a master cylinder while it’s on the car, but if you guys do, I’d love to hear it. I’m leaning towards first swapping the clutch master cylinder, since it’s old, hard to rule out, yet less effort to swap than a clutch, and if it was the pressure plate, I’m not sure that it would be acting like this, it’s possible, but in my eyes, less likely.

Thanks a bunch
-M

[turbodan]

Master cylinder is not a fun job. I would probably not jump at the chance to do that one just in case. The typical mode of failure involves leakage and/or a pedal dropping to the floor. Likely not related to your current issue.

The slave cylinder will leak too. I just replaced the one in my turbo car. I had been seeing spots under the car of unknown origin, but had not been enthusiastic about getting under there to investigate in December. Once it lost enough fluid to run the master dry, the point at which the pedal built pressure moved closer and closer to the floor. By the time I limped it back home, I had perhaps an inch of effective pedal stroke left. The clutch still worked normally and there were no issues with shifting.

Going into gear easily with the engine off points toward a clutch issue. Could be the disc or pressure plate, or something unusual like a bad pilot bearing too. Wouldn't condemn anything yet, but it's an indicator.

[Profile36]

Master cylinder is not a fun job. I would probably not jump at the chance to do that one just in case. The typical mode of failure involves leakage and/or a pedal dropping to the floor. Likely not related to your current issue.

The slave cylinder will leak too. I just replaced the one in my turbo car. I had been seeing spots under the car of unknown origin, but had not been enthusiastic about getting under there to investigate in December. Once it lost enough fluid to run the master dry, the point at which the pedal built pressure moved closer and closer to the floor. By the time I limped it back home, I had perhaps an inch of effective pedal stroke left. The clutch still worked normally and there were no issues with shifting.

Going into gear easily with the engine off points toward a clutch issue. Could be the disc or pressure plate, or something unusual like a bad pilot bearing too. Wouldn't condemn anything yet, but it's an indicator.

I hear ya loud and clear, out of all the fluids on a car, brake fluid in an inconvenient place like under the steering wheel, is not fun. Especially when the fluid eats everything whether its dead or alive. I can already see my future, full of plastic garbage bags and paper towels trying to work under there. My plan is to just drain all the fluid at the slave before I get started. Pressure bleed it after in case its needed.

Thanks for sharing the failure points and your experience, its super interesting to me and why I like this board so much. The only slave I saw go bad made the pedal go to the floor and stay there, but with yours it seems like the seal hung in there long enough to get you home. Most interesting is that the only thing that changed in your case, was the engagement point. To me this makes sense as the slave does not have two seals inside, rather just one. So the type that our cars use would be less likely to cause shifting issues.

I believe the failure I am experiencing with my clutch master cylinder is where one of the seals internally is bad, which is causing it not to move enough fluid to the slave, this in turn is causing the clutch to drag making the car miserable to shift. While its moving, the synchros dont have to depend on the hydraulics as much, unlike when the car is at a standstill. At least I hope this is correct.

I appreciate all the "outside the box" thinking along with me here. I already feel better about the job, having a couple solid hypotheses.

-M

[Mike W.]

Master cylinder is not a fun job. I would probably not jump at the chance to do that one just in case. The typical mode of failure involves leakage and/or a pedal dropping to the floor. Likely not related to your current issue.

Agreed, but with a bad pedal bracket I've seen them just be cranky and not have a good feel. Replacing the clutch master difficulty level depends on how much experience you have. PITA if you're on vacation, but I've got it down to half an hour, maybe less, in a parking lot, on vacation. Practice makes perfect, and I've had plenty.

All done from above and no bleeding required besides pumping the pedal a thousand times.

[Profile36]

Master cylinder is not a fun job. I would probably not jump at the chance to do that one just in case. The typical mode of failure involves leakage and/or a pedal dropping to the floor. Likely not related to your current issue.

Agreed, but with a bad pedal bracket I've seen them just be cranky and not have a good feel. Replacing the clutch master difficulty level depends on how much experience you have. PITA if you're on vacation, but I've got it down to half an hour, maybe less, in a parking lot, on vacation. Practice makes perfect, and I've had plenty.

All done from above and no bleeding required besides pumping the pedal a thousand times.

I can only imagine how crappy it must feel when that support bracket goes bad, not sure if its removable, but welding under there would be a pain in the ass. I installed my reinforcement bracket as soon as I read about it happening, and it makes sense with the effort required to press the pedal in. I believe the newer cars use bigger master cylinders so our soft wimpy legs can press the clutch in easier.

-M

[Mike W.]

I can only imagine how crappy it must feel when that support bracket goes bad, not sure if its removable, but welding under there would be a pain in the ass. I installed my reinforcement bracket as soon as I read about it happening, and it makes sense with the effort required to press the pedal in. I believe the newer cars use bigger master cylinders so our soft wimpy legs can press the clutch in easier.

-M

Changing the pedal bracket wasn't all that bad, one of those jobs I got myself all steeled up for, dreading, and 2 or 2.5 hours later I'm going, that wasn't bad at all.

But feel. Yeah, I put up with it for 80K before I changed the bracket (it wasn't that well documented back in '02) and then, wow, what a difference. It was lighter and so much better feel, you know, like it was supposed to be. It was actually a replacement already at 175K when I bought it, and slightly bent, I don't think cracked at the time and when it did crack it was just a hairline that I could only see when I got it out into the sun, under the dash, no way could I see anything.

[austin8753]

i've seen a similar issue where a strange combination of clutch actuation parts were used. the clutch was only fully disengaging right at the floor, so when the clutch slave cylinder died and was replaced + bled, it wasn't actually fully bleeding because the plunger wasn't being depressed fully. once removing the rubber/plastic clutch stop and the slave cylinder plunger was being completely depressed, it bled out and worked just fine. this may not be your issue, but i felt it was worth commenting, since you are unaware of what clutch parts are installed. something to investigate on your end.

you could also try bleeding the clutch in a rather primitive way (or unconventional, depends who you ask, lol), but i've done it this way (working solo) for many years and had great results every time. r/r clutch slave cylinder and install to the bell housing, fill reservoir, and pump the master cylinder about 15-20 times. working under the vehicle, remove the slave cylinder from the bell housing, and depress the plunger on the side of the transmission *FULLY* about 10-20 times, or until you feel a significant amount of resistance. this way, you know that the unit is being completely depressed and there is no air remaining in the system.

while on the topic, a fractured pedal box can also exhibit similar symptoms, but that's been well covered.

good luck,
A

[adam_poll]

I think it could be as simple as the original little bit of grease on the input shaft splines drying up and now the clutch disc remains in slight contact with either the flywheel or pressure plate when you depress the clutch pedal in neutral, maybe the shorter shifter and increased effort is just showing this more. Of course to fix that you need to drop the transmission so you might as well put a clutch kit in it and be done with it. My car was like that with the original clutch at 300+ km but it would go in ok after selecting second then first at a stop, new clutch kit and the pedal is much lighter and it goes into gear nicely from a stop.

I did have a slave fail recently on my E90, obviously a bit different from an E28 (but not a lot), the internal seal had gone. When I would first depress the clutch everything felt/operated fine but it would slowly release on its own with my foot to the floor. Not a fun experience but I'd expect a failing master would do something similar so I don't think that is your issue if you don't have any leaks. You did mention bleeding it, is it possible that job didn't go perfect? I doubt that is it as my experience with these is if you get them ok they'll self bleed out the top over time Anyway. When I have bled them I just pop the slave out of the transmission and pump it in and out by hand and the bubbles make there way out the top (this would be after changing a slave, otherwise for a fluid change I just use my pressure bleeder and crack the bleeder on the slave and let the fluid flow through).

I really like the X5 shifter (pn# 25117543190) in my car, it sits at stock height and position but gives a bit shorter throw without being too much.

I also really like the Ford Full Synthetic Manual Transmission Fluid XT-M5-QS in my high mileage 260/6 transmission. I always found second gear would grind running any of the redlines when cold but this stuff works hot or cold and is actually a bit thicker than MTL. Just pick it up from your local Ford dealer.

[Blue Shadow]

There were some manuals that specified ATF. Check the label on your trans. I don't know what your trans should have in it.

for an 85 with a 265
the steering is heavy
the brakes need some pressure
clutch needed a good push
the shifting was a bit lighter, swapping to the Autosolutions made the effort needed match the steering and brakes better. This is expected because of the ratio of the levers operating the gearbox and the driver.

In an 85 735i, 265 again, as the pressure plate was breaking apart the push got harder but the trans still disengaged. Once the plate finger broke off the trans was locked in and shifting was limited. Got the car home swapped the clutch and boy howdy it was a pleasure to use again. This with the original wore-slap-out shift mechanism which will be replaced/repaired soon enough.

A heavy clutch is kinda normal in the big 6.

The clutch lasts about 150,000 miles give or take. I got about that on the H7s and more on the 535 but the 535 was mine all its life, the H7s had adult drivers in NC the first 120,000 miles. Who knows what they did. I expect the higher hp/torque would wear out the clutch a bit faster anyway even with similar driving style.

I'd think the car is shifting properly and maybe a new clutch with nicely lubricated throw out bearing and such with a fresh pressure plate will make a difference. With the clutch actuation fully disengaging the transmission, I don't think you have master/slave issues.