Q: How to pimp a 2.4td engine?

Finally, a home for all you 524td oil burners out there.
Raas
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Joined: Apr 06, 2008 2:31 PM
Location: Estonia

Q: How to pimp a 2.4td engine?

Post by Raas »

Hi everybody. Im new here and seeking for help.

The thing is that a friend of mine wants to add some power to his E30 324td (1993). And we dont know where to start :laugh:

I have read that you can add turbo pressure by tweaking the injection pump, but the problem is that his beemer has probably an electric fuel injection pump. And we dont know yet which turbo he has: T3 or TD04 (he just went to garage to check it out). Does it affect the performance?

I was looking for CHIPs software but couldnt find any and he doesnt want to spend $$$ on it, as somebody already said: You don't need a performance chip on this car to tune it.

Secondly, if he would really put a some kind of intercooler under the bonnet, then you probably cant leave everything as it is, can you? I mean putting IC on stock engine, software etc.

I hope you have some good advice, thank you.

Ryan

Edit: It seems that the turbo is TD 04 11b
ldsbeaker
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Post by ldsbeaker »

Sorry, but the M21 is not a performance engine IMO.

However, my idea of performance for that engine would be to use Vegetable Oil instead of Diesel. That's called FREE HP!!

(well, not totally free, you have to set yourself and your car up for it, and locate a restaurant in your area who will give you the stuff for free...)
Raas
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Joined: Apr 06, 2008 2:31 PM
Location: Estonia

Post by Raas »

Well yes, it isnt either a drag nor racing engine but... how to make it a little better?

He did something that raised the top end turbo pressure (removed the wastegate perhaps or something? ) and he got it up to about 1.2 bar. But then it somehow lost some power... (while having a higher pressure). He said that too high pressure and it might not be good for the engine and tweaked it back to normal.

Edit: Yup :D
Last edited by Raas on Apr 07, 2008 11:45 AM, edited 1 time in total.
markx
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Joined: Aug 31, 2007 3:43 AM

Post by markx »

Vaata aga vaata.....eestlased siia ka jõudnud :D
altus22
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Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
Location: Norfolk, VA

Re: Q: How to pimp a 2.4td engine?

Post by altus22 »

Raas wrote:Hi everybody. Im new here and seeking for help.

The thing is that a friend of mine wants to add some power to his E30 324td (1993). And we dont know where to start :laugh:

I have read that you can add turbo pressure by tweaking the injection pump, but the problem is that his beemer has probably an electric fuel injection pump. And we dont know yet which turbo he has: T3 or TD04 (he just went to garage to check it out). Does it affect the performance?

I was looking for CHIPs software but couldnt find any and he doesnt want to spend $$$ on it, as somebody already said: You don't need a performance chip on this car to tune it.

Secondly, if he would really put a some kind of intercooler under the bonnet, then you probably cant leave everything as it is, can you? I mean putting IC on stock engine, software etc.

I hope you have some good advice, thank you.

Ryan

Edit: It seems that the turbo is TD 04 11b
Putting an intercooler in it will probably be your biggest power gain. Cooling the intake charge will let you add more fuel without your exhaust gas temps rising too much. The intercooler will also let you raise the boost more safely. I'm not familiar with what the computer controls on that injection pump so I won't comment on how to tweak it. Good luck.
Last edited by altus22 on Aug 06, 2008 2:57 PM, edited 1 time in total.
cetanefreek
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Joined: Jan 23, 2008 6:58 PM
Location: north va/ southern ID

Re: Q: How to pimp a 2.4td engine?

Post by cetanefreek »

altus22 wrote:Putting an intuercooler in it will probably be your biggest power gain. Cooling the intake charge will let you add more fuel without your exhaust gas temps rising too much. The intercooler will also let you raise the boost more safely. I'm not familiar with what the computer controls on that injection pump so I won't comment on how to tweak it. Good luck.
I second that, adding an intercooler will make the engine perform better, lower exhaust gas temperatures, and generally make life easier on for the internals of the engine.
slave2school
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Location: NS, Canada

Post by slave2school »

Check out youtube.com there are some excellent videos, several nearing 200hp.
muuris
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Location: Finland

Post by muuris »

Last weekend I had mine E30 td dynoed. 233hp/4040rpm and 422nm/3770rpm (on engine, 213hp on wheels). Stock E28 head, head gasket and intake/exhaust manifolds. Holset HX35 turbo, 3" exhaust and modded injection pump with Cummins 5,9L (I gen) distributor. Boost was at 26psi on dyno, but the engine produces same power at about 22psi also. Next upgrade will be getting the max power revs way up..
Tankas
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Joined: Sep 09, 2007 5:00 PM
Location: Taurage / Lithuania

Post by Tankas »

muuris wrote:Last weekend I had mine E30 td dynoed. 233hp/4040rpm and 422nm/3770rpm (on engine, 213hp on wheels). Stock E28 head, head gasket and intake/exhaust manifolds. Holset HX35 turbo, 3" exhaust and modded injection pump with Cummins 5,9L (I gen) distributor. Boost was at 26psi on dyno, but the engine produces same power at about 22psi also. Next upgrade will be getting the max power revs way up..
More details please ;)

P.S. myself last weekend have installed a boost gauge. Only 10psi curently. Today will try to boost up to 17-18psi. No IC :bawl: for now...
P.P.S. would it be ok to run at 26psi with standar tds IC (from M51D engine)?
Tankas
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Location: Taurage / Lithuania

Post by Tankas »

Tankas wrote:P.P.S. would it be ok to run at 26psi with standar tds IC (from M51D engine)?
Tried to boost by closing hose no. 20 on the turbocharger,
boost goes up. and around 18psi the valve (part np 9, second pict.) on the Intake manifold get opened, at the same time oil pressure light comes on.

Why does the oil pressure light comes on, maybe it indicates too big boost?

Image
Image
muuris
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Joined: Oct 29, 2007 3:56 AM
Location: Finland

Post by muuris »

-before any other mods, add a proper intercooler
-do not boost over 14psi on stock turbo
-do not try to increase boost by disconnecting the wastegate pressure line
-stock tds intercooler is okay for max ~15psi
-oil pressure light comes on when boost goes over ~15psi (switch in the overpressure valve below intake manifold, item #9 on the latter picture Tankas posted)

Remember, power doesn't come from boost only. Boost makes engine breathe more, so you can add more fuel, which makes power. Injection timing and length are ones of the major variables. When talking about boost, 15psi isn't the same amount of air in every system (engine, manifolds, turbo etc..). Stock turbocharger running 20psi is far less than for example HX35 running 15psi. Think about this: you have two coke bottles. One has 2mm hole in the bottom, the other one has no bottom end at all. When you put 15psi of pressure in both, which one has the greater air flow through it? ;) After all, an engine is nothing but an air pump.

With stock injection pump and settings, you can boost over 30psi and still get less than stock 115hp. If your turbo is big enough to handle those pressure ratios, you'll propably get the stock hp. Trying the same on stock tiny turbo, you'll get (say) over 30psi of exhaust manifold pressure, so actually less air is flowing through the engine than in stock form. In stock, exhaust manifold pressure is much, much less than the intake manifold (=boost) pressure.

Not only high exhaust manifold pressure makes you lose power, but it also means high exhaust gas temperatures and high engine loads. Before you even notice, you'll have a warped/cracked head. Finding an intact used head is almost impossible. Many of you guys sure have warped heads which you don't even know about. Trust me, I know -- I have three cracked heads in the garage.

On a proper turbo and injection settings you can get around 170hp running 15psi boost. That is about the maximum you can get with a decent pump tuning, if you need more, you'll need to upgrade the distributor head and more.
muuris
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Joined: Oct 29, 2007 3:56 AM
Location: Finland

Post by muuris »

Some pics of my project. Started out with an automatic E28, changed the engine to E30 318i touring which can be registered as a van --> much, much cheaper diesel taxes.

Somewhat in stock form:
Image


Engine failure:
Image

Image

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Rebuilding the engine:
Image

Image


Exhaust manifold enhancement in progress
Image


Distributor head and cam plate:
Image


Holset HX35:
Image


450x300x75 mm intercooler
Image


Exhaust pipe:
Image

Gauges:
Image


Almost ready in E30:
Image


Pipings on the engine intake are 2,5" and the exhaust is 3" all the way. Automatic was changed to manual because ZF 4hp22 has failed in almost every +200hp application. It tried out E30 M3 stock clutch at first, but it started slipping straight away when boost went over 18psi. Now I have a Sachs Race Engineering ...618 pressure plate with the same E30 M3 clutch friction plate and no slipping has occured.


Dyno graph (the blue line is boost pressure, 1bar=15psi):
Image


So far 13,000km on this rebuilt engine.
Tankas
Posts: 99
Joined: Sep 09, 2007 5:00 PM
Location: Taurage / Lithuania

Post by Tankas »

Today did an adjustment to an actuators "leg" - now boosting to 12psi.
(Keep in mind that 13psi is a factory default if i'm right)
muuris
Posts: 23
Joined: Oct 29, 2007 3:56 AM
Location: Finland

Post by muuris »

Tankas wrote:Today did an adjustment to an actuators "leg" - now boosting to 12psi.
(Keep in mind that 13psi is a factory default if i'm right)
That's the proper way to increase boost. Yes, factory setting is in the range of 10-13psi. Did you also turn clockwise the load screw? I've adjusted the load so that just before reaching full boost, the visible smoke stops coming from the exhaust. So, if your car is now running 12psi of boost, I'd set the load so that visible smoke stop coming in around 9psi boost.

Injection timing can also be advanced a little, so that the engine has more time to burn the increased amount of fuel. Doesn't sound so nice (if diesel ever does) on idle and part-load, but burn process temperatures go down and so might (depending on many other factors as well) the fuel mileage.
Tankas
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Joined: Sep 09, 2007 5:00 PM
Location: Taurage / Lithuania

Post by Tankas »

muuris wrote:Did you also turn clockwise the load screw?
Can you mark on a foto that screw? I think my car is running on rich fuel mixture.

P.S. thanks for really useful info ;)
muuris
Posts: 23
Joined: Oct 29, 2007 3:56 AM
Location: Finland

Post by muuris »

Some links, read and learn the Bosch VE -pump basics before doing modifications or adjustments. Know what you're doing!

http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd/vepump.htm
http://www.cs.rochester.edu/~jag/vw/eng ... jpump.html
http://mebonty.monobasin.net/vepump.html

You can find a lot info about VE -pump on VW diesel forums, old 1.6d, 1.6td and 1.9td have basically the same pump. Non-turbo VW pumps doesn't have boost enrichment/smoke reducing device (LDA) on the top of the pump, so it looks somewhat different.

Try to find a scanned version of Bosch's Diesel Distributor Fuel-Injection Pumps -book (BoschFuelInjectionPumpTypeVE2.pdf), it can be found somewhere on the Internet...


Some basic adjustments: loosen the lock nut on the top of the LDA (13mm nut) and turn the torx screw in the middle of it as far counterclockwise as it goes. Tighten the lock nut. This is called the smoke scew and it may already be in the the minimum position (ccw). This reduces injection amount of non-boosted fuel injected.

Image

Now you may think why to reduce it and why not add more. Next we'll turn the full-load screw. The smoke screw only determines how much fuel can be injected before full boost, but the full-load screw determines the fuel amount on the whole engine load range. We don't want excessive smoke on light loads, but we do want more fuel on full boost. Even when the smoke screw is turned ccw and full-load screw is turned cw a little (about 1/4 round for starters), the engine may get the same or even more fuel than before on non-boost situations.

Loosen the 13mm lock nut on full load screw and turn it clockwise for about 1/4 of a round.

Image

Now you may need to reduce idle speed. The idle screw is easily found when you look at where the accelerator lever is stopped (on the engine side of the pump). It's locked by a 10mm nut. Now, go for a test drive. If you see visible smoke on full boost, turn the full-load screw ccw a bit.

That's for starters, next thing will be reading the Bosch manual I mentioned earlier and finding a bigger turbo and a proper intercooler 8)


ps. despite tuning my engine and having twice the original power, the car consumes about 7,1L/100 on average.
Vixen TD
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Joined: May 02, 2008 2:37 AM

Post by Vixen TD »

Tankas wrote:
Tankas wrote:P.P.S. would it be ok to run at 26psi with standar tds IC (from M51D engine)?
Tried to boost by closing hose no. 20 on the turbocharger,
boost goes up. and around 18psi the valve (part np 9, second pict.) on the Intake manifold get opened, at the same time oil pressure light comes on.

Why does the oil pressure light comes on, maybe it indicates too big boost?
The intake manifold "pop off" valve (part # 14) is wired so that the oil pressure light comes on when the valve is triggered. Seems like an odd way to indicate an excessive boost condition, but that is the way it is wired.

Image
Shikaroka
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Location: Charleston, WV

Post by Shikaroka »

I have a HX30 and a Super 60 that I am going to play around with on my 524td.
I am also installing an intercooler and external wastegate.

Right now she is pretty guttless until the boost comes on, but I figure I need to tune the pump some. I had it calibrated at a diesel shop, but who knows if they got it right.

I hope to get her on the dyno this weekend, just to get an idea before I start playing too much.
I own my own chassis dyno so I can play all day if I want. I figure tuning the pump on the dyno is the way to go.
muuris
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Joined: Oct 29, 2007 3:56 AM
Location: Finland

Post by muuris »

Shikaroka wrote:I figure tuning the pump on the dyno is the way to go.
You can't do much without taking the pump off the car and opening it. The pump should be calibrated on a pump bench in diesel shop after modifications. This is quite pricey and not every shop even does all the necessary mods to make big hp, so I decided to tune the pump myself. Calibration isn't enough, you are surely lacking fuel (with HX30) if the distributor head is the stock 10mm one. You may get ~170hp as said earlier, but that's just a waste of the turbo's potential ;) The 12mm distibutor head (made in China) cost me a total of ~70 euros, compared to ~500 euros of an original Bosch head.

By the way, I did modifications to the pump last weekend and got it together yesterday. Now pulls nicely to over 5500rpm 8) Got to dyno it in the summer..
Shikaroka
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Location: Charleston, WV

Post by Shikaroka »

By tuning the pump, I meant just setting the fuel screws.
On the dyno I can load the engine, do mulitiple runs quickly, and watch for smoke. It's easier then, turning a screw and taking it for a test drive, then trying it all over again.
Kameix1
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Post by Kameix1 »

Great info, I will be using this on my Vixen 21 so I can drive it and not get passed by kids on rollerblades :)
Shikaroka
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Location: Charleston, WV

Post by Shikaroka »

Image

First Baseline.
Only mod was a K&N open element air filter and boost cranked a little up to around 12psi peak.
I have, although, done a lot of work to get her to run this good.

I'm trying to get her to run at least as good as stock, first. Then I'm shooting for around the 170hp mark.

Anyone ever try propane injection on the M21?
With the price of diesel these days, it seems like a good idea.
Bonapartist
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Post by Bonapartist »

My advice would be to swap that K&N out for your original filter pronto. Use the search function on this website or google to see he horror stories yourself.
Shikaroka
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Location: Charleston, WV

Post by Shikaroka »

Yeh, yeh, I know.
But, I can't fit the factory box in there anymore.

My stock turbo (still on there for now) is pretty much shot, so I'm not too worried about it.
muuris
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Joined: Oct 29, 2007 3:56 AM
Location: Finland

Post by muuris »

ldsbeaker wrote:Sorry, but the M21 is not a performance engine IMO.
Couple of weeks ago I decided to try out 1/4 mile with my E30 td. Best run was 14,84sec / 99,8mph. Not that fast really, but beats most M20s ;) Fuel consumption is no more than 7l/100km or 40mpg.

That said, I'm getting rid of M21 to get more power :rofl:
Jelmer538i
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Post by Jelmer538i »

Anybody interested in a Cummins VE pump? Or a turbo from that same first gen Cummins?
Wierd Al
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Post by Wierd Al »

Can folks that have done dyno runs post their #"s?? tourque and HP?

I am building my car for a HP-Tourque/weight class...I am aiming for 18.5 lbs divided by the average of HP and Tourque, meaning if I have 100HP, my car can weigh 1850 lbs. I am hoping to get away with just adding an intercooler and open exhast...not enough time to do much else, the chassis is an e30 318 convertable..

Thanks

Al
muuris
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Joined: Oct 29, 2007 3:56 AM
Location: Finland

Post by muuris »

Wierd Al wrote:Can folks that have done dyno runs post their #"s?? tourque and HP?

I am building my car for a HP-Tourque/weight class...I am aiming for 18.5 lbs divided by the average of HP and Tourque, meaning if I have 100HP, my car can weigh 1850 lbs. I am hoping to get away with just adding an intercooler and open exhast...not enough time to do much else, the chassis is an e30 318 convertable..

Thanks

Al
So you're trying to get around 144hp? With stock turbo, don't bother making the exhaust. Just adding the intercooler and turning the full load screw should do it. With the cooler on, adjust the boost level to about 0,9bar or 13psi.

If I were you, I'd modify the governor springs also to get more gut to the upper revs. Even though max power comes on 4800rpm on stock engine, the fuel amount is starting to reduce right after 3000rpm and engine feels somewhat like a rubber band. It's much nicer to have a governor that limits the injection after 5000rpm, so it pulls hard up like a gasoline engine.
Wierd Al
Posts: 298
Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM

td mods..

Post by Wierd Al »

Yes, 140 Hp is my goal, but I have to be careful, the rules for my racing class say if your engine makes more tourque, you must take the average of Tq and HP, I have the chassis completely striped out and have added a full rollcage, I have to get the rest of the car together and get it on the scales, My goal at first is to not have to do too much development on the engine, just get it out on the track and run, I will be running a soybean oil/biodiesel mix to raise awareness of alternative fuels, also eventually be driving this car to the track as it makes no sense to push conservation/alternatives and have to haul the thing to the track with a rig. I am hoping that I hit it pretty close to the 18.5 lb/hp-tq....if I am light I may run a factory hardtop but I would hate to add that weight up high.

I am planning to run the intercooler where the RH headlights and AC dryer would be, any good sources? The Audi units fit in that area, but the hose ends are in the wrong place...


Al
cetanefreek
Posts: 66
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Location: north va/ southern ID

Post by cetanefreek »

mine put down 73 Hp and 136lb/ft to the wheels, but that is with the cam going flat and about .060" valve lash, I'll agree with the turning the full load screw, but would also suggest turning the fuel pin to the maximum fueling position and shaving the nylon washer/spacer so that the pin can travel to it's max position, that can do a LOT even without touching the full load screw, also, the charge air cooler is a MUST!!! good luck and let us know how it turns out.
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