Operation: Parking Lot Hartge: Update 9/21/22, Back in the saddle
Some say that Hartge cams have an H stamped on them however, the cam in my head does not have it. A cam grinding shop can measure the lift and duration pretty easy, but it needs to come out.
Some also say that Hartge used a 292. lift and others quote a 282. Schrick makes a 282. but I haven't compared the durations from Schrick to Hartge.
Some also say that Hartge used a 292. lift and others quote a 282. Schrick makes a 282. but I haven't compared the durations from Schrick to Hartge.
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Tammer in Philly
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I think you're confusing lift and duration.gwade wrote:Some say that Hartge cams have an H stamped on them however, the cam in my head does not have it. A cam grinding shop can measure the lift and duration pretty easy, but it needs to come out.
Some also say that Hartge used a 292. lift and others quote a 282. Schrick makes a 282. but I haven't compared the durations from Schrick to Hartge.
Regardless, I thought Hartge M30s used a 284 degree cam. Blue Shadow can probably confirm.
-tammer
Finally pulled the exhaust and headers, still trying to determine if they are legit. They seem real but are modified with 2-bolt flanges.
They don't say Hartge anywhere, but it's an early car, maybe they weren't stamped then. All they have is a plate on each one with the number "99152".
Then I got the head off, bad news, kinda. Head bolts weren't as tight as expected. The head is pretty much a total loss. Could be warped, doesn't matter.
Block looks........ok, going to need lots of cleaning. The cylinder walls look fair but usable for now. I guess I'll throw my B35 head on there.
They don't say Hartge anywhere, but it's an early car, maybe they weren't stamped then. All they have is a plate on each one with the number "99152".
Then I got the head off, bad news, kinda. Head bolts weren't as tight as expected. The head is pretty much a total loss. Could be warped, doesn't matter.
Block looks........ok, going to need lots of cleaning. The cylinder walls look fair but usable for now. I guess I'll throw my B35 head on there.
Last edited by landspeed on Sep 21, 2022 10:54 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Thought I would chime in here since I have owned 2 Hartge H5S's. One that I bought new in 1983 and of course what I guess is now called "Trey's car". My first H5S was a bit unusual as it was produced before Hartge started with their front and rear spoilers and wheels. It was Polaris with Mocha comfort seats. Also, it was not a Performance Plus import. It did have the Hartge stamped oil cooler, 2.5/2.8 intake, Hartge stamped distributor, and head, c/r 5 spd, gauge pack, stripe set, springs, billies, and a 3:25 LSD. It came with the euro BBS front spoiler with tow hook covers, and a big BBS rubber rear spoiler with a grocery handle in the middle...kinda goofy! Also had a set of BBS RS.
The second H5S, most of you already know about. It had all of the aforementioned, but had the yellow springs and sways. Any other questions, please feel free to PM me about. Also, both cars had Hartge stamped on the head and Hartge welded to the headers.
The second H5S, most of you already know about. It had all of the aforementioned, but had the yellow springs and sways. Any other questions, please feel free to PM me about. Also, both cars had Hartge stamped on the head and Hartge welded to the headers.
I was trying to bust your balls, Chris....it workedIt's not offically referred to as Trey's car. LOL
On your Polaris car (btw, you wouldn't happen to have any photos anywhere, would you?), did they put Hartge emblems on the wheels like they did with the BBS RAs they used?
Sounds like a really cool car.
No malice here, just trying to make you sweat for a second.I don't have any photos of the car at all, and wish I did. I am still in touch with the guy that imported the car for me, and I will ask him if he has any. The BBS wheels, just had the standard cap on them. It was really a cool car and had an interesting history. It was imported my Albert Mardikian in 1983. If his name doesn't ring a bell, I will shed some light on him and his doings. In late 1979, Albert (Al) had a used car lot on Pacific Coast Highway in Newport Beach right where the Ferrari dealer is now. All he had on his lot were grey market cars and exotics! We used to roll up in my US spec e21 320i and drool at the Alpina B6, the 323i, Porsche Turbo, etc.
Well, around 1983 Al had been doing this federalization gig for quite some time and was paying a premium for the ritzy real estate. So, let's just say his greed took over and he started importing a ton of cars with his "new" clients money, he would then pick up the car from the port (they used to let you drive them to your shop), then he would send all of the pictures and paper work that he did on the last car in and get his D.O.T. and E.P.A. releases. He would also get all the money for the supposed "conversion"....but he wouldn't do the conversion!!! It took a while for people to realize that they didn't have anything on the car that they were charged for. So, the Feds showed up one day and gave good ole Al a set of matching bracelets. He ended up in Federal Prison.
Well, the Hartge H5S was one of the cars that he did the switcho change-o with the paper work. I had sold the car to some dork that somehow got it financed through his employer....Bank of America! Well, BofA fired him and he stopped making payments on the car. The Feds tracked the car down and confiscated it from the BofA impound yard and no one knows what happened to it. I would probably guess that they crushed the car.
Since the car didn't have smog equipment on it, the car hauled a$$. This was back in 83/84, but I could take a Ninja off the line and stay with him until he hit 3rd every time. It was hilarious watching the guy on the bike look over at me wondering what was still beside him!!!
So, yet another unhappy ending to very rare car in the U.S.
Maybe that 5 digit number is a good sign. I checked one of my NOS m20 pieces and it has a metal tag with Hartge and a paper tag with "18712 ACHTERSTE HELFT" (Dutch for some reason).landspeed wrote:They don't say Hartge anywhere, but it's an early car, maybe they weren't stamped then. All they have is a plate on each one with the number "99152".
Also, mine have no flanges at all on the collector end.
Either way, they didn't come in a Hartge. Hartge only used BMW OEM. Not to say someone didn't order them special. I am very curious if this car was ordered from the Kohl Aachen dealer or was it a Performance Plus car?
I have seen only one 745i Executive with Recaro seats....obviously Buffalo hide. The car was ordered by the former owner of the Denver Broncos.
I have seen only one 745i Executive with Recaro seats....obviously Buffalo hide. The car was ordered by the former owner of the Denver Broncos.
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Das_Prachtstrasse
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All the local Frank Gardener e28 "M528i's" had cloth versions of those Recaros. I had a set for a while in one of my other e28's, but preferred the driving feel of the BMW sports seats. Haven't ever come across a set in leather, they look quite nice.
In reference to what you said Ron, the Japanese car that donated a few of the parts to my Hartge build, a smashed e24 Hartge H6S, had the later, electric Recaros, similar to those used in the e34 Alpina's. Same seat as these, but in beige leather. Whether they were indeed original to the car however, I cannot say.
I've also seen a reprinted Hartge build sheet, generated for a friend of mine when he was looking to authenticate a potential e30 H23 purchase. It was re-printed 18 months ago from cache by a Hartge employee named Michael Webber, and it shows the use of ASS brand cloth sport seats in it's spec. I'll see if I can locate a copy for you, as in at least one car they've used non-BMW seats, so perhaps it's possible they ventured into other models, also?
In reference to what you said Ron, the Japanese car that donated a few of the parts to my Hartge build, a smashed e24 Hartge H6S, had the later, electric Recaros, similar to those used in the e34 Alpina's. Same seat as these, but in beige leather. Whether they were indeed original to the car however, I cannot say.
I've also seen a reprinted Hartge build sheet, generated for a friend of mine when he was looking to authenticate a potential e30 H23 purchase. It was re-printed 18 months ago from cache by a Hartge employee named Michael Webber, and it shows the use of ASS brand cloth sport seats in it's spec. I'll see if I can locate a copy for you, as in at least one car they've used non-BMW seats, so perhaps it's possible they ventured into other models, also?
Recaro seats are listed in the ETK and could be ordered as original equipment in the various cars so its not out of line to think these might could be original. I find it unlikely on this particular car just from a logic standpoint but I will never purport to be an expert on Hartge cars. Or even E28s for that matter.
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Jelmer538i
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Boneyard Dynamics
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You could order your BMW e23, e24, e28 and e30 with standard sofa seats, bmw sport seats and with Recaro sport seats. The Recaros where BMW online, but almost similar to other Recaros.
Also BMW Recaro sport seats where more expensive than bmw sport seats. could be the reason why the bmw recaros where not so often bought as the bmw sports.
sofa seats and bmw sport seats could be ordered with electric adjustment. the bmw recaro sport seats where only availible with manuel adjustment.
(there is a story about some euro M5s with electric recaros, but it s just a story and the guys in garching would have installed almost everything if you could afford it. they even painted one euro m5 in a mercedes green)
till august 82 or 84 you could get your recaros in every color. after that date you could offically only get black recaros. But their is always a but, if you begged enough you probably got also other colors, because from time to time you can find late e28s with non black recaros polsterd with typical late e28 cloth.
There are also different versions of BMW Recaros depending on which bmw they were fitted.
greetings from bavaria
wolfgang
Also BMW Recaro sport seats where more expensive than bmw sport seats. could be the reason why the bmw recaros where not so often bought as the bmw sports.
sofa seats and bmw sport seats could be ordered with electric adjustment. the bmw recaro sport seats where only availible with manuel adjustment.
(there is a story about some euro M5s with electric recaros, but it s just a story and the guys in garching would have installed almost everything if you could afford it. they even painted one euro m5 in a mercedes green)
till august 82 or 84 you could get your recaros in every color. after that date you could offically only get black recaros. But their is always a but, if you begged enough you probably got also other colors, because from time to time you can find late e28s with non black recaros polsterd with typical late e28 cloth.
There are also different versions of BMW Recaros depending on which bmw they were fitted.
greetings from bavaria
wolfgang
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Das_Prachtstrasse
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Ron, everyone makes mistakes and miscalculations. I know I make plenty. You have likely forgotten more about E28s than any of us know, not to mention you have so much stuff going on right now that I don't know how you keep it all together. It's tough particularly with cars like Hartges since there are so many subtle individual differences on top of all the unique things from year to year on the E28 chassis. How many H5s have you seen exactly the same? It's not easy to keep everything straight.