84 533i turbo build thread

[r.martin]

I kind of have this infatuation with anti-lag, can it be used safely on an m30, or do rocker arms start to shatter? I do have the heavy-duty rockers from IE for this build.

[marc79euro645]

Just put a bangbang injector in ahead of the turbo. That should take care of any lag issues

[Shadow]

bangbang is rough on the rockers BUT wtf are u doing with bangbang and trying to keep reliability in mind.
i've used it. it's fine. rockers won't just shatter. just keep the rockers tight and keep the abuse at a minimum.

[r.martin]

bangbang is rough on the rockers BUT wtf are u doing with bangbang and trying to keep reliability in mind.
i've used it. it's fine. rockers won't just shatter. just keep the rockers tight and keep the abuse at a minimum.

On the note of rockers, the HD rockers from Ireland are noticeably thicker than stock. Has anyone had an issue with them breaking or am I overcomplicating this again? I was at the engine shop again today, we are moving forward with the machining of the block and installation of the new pistons. The builder strongly recommended that we go with ARP head studs. Are the studs on the m20 the same as the m30?

[marc79euro645]

Ireland recommended zddp additive to me for breakin on the h/d rockers. Which i did.I can't say it helped,but, I don't think it hurt.

[r.martin]

Ireland recommended zddp additive to me for breakin on the h/d rockers. Which i did.I can't say it helped,but, I don't think it hurt.

And you have had no issues with the HD rockers I take it? I heard a rumor about them breaking.

[marc79euro645]

No problems with the IE hd's. I had broken 2 stockers previously, that's when I upgraded. I don't cane the car that hard anymore. I think the lifters shifted back against the light springs and floated out of position. I've seen others lock the rocker position on the shaft with lock collars and set screws for high rpm safety. Maybe it's my tune, or setup, but, I rarely rev over 6200.

[r.martin]

No problems with the IE hd's. I had broken 2 stockers previously, that's when I upgraded. I don't cane the car that hard anymore. I think the lifters shifted back against the light springs and floated out of position. I've seen others lock the rocker position on the shaft with lock collars and set screws for high rpm safety. Maybe it's my tune, or setup, but, I rarely rev over 6200.

That is good to know, I did get the lock collars when I ordered the HD rockers

[e38740imd]

is your pressure plate a sach 765? i would use that than any other oem Pressure plate

looking forward to your build as im doing the same.

but unfortunetly my build is on Bimmerforums

ill be tuned in eating popcorn in the empty auditorium sike i kid

[r.martin]

is your pressure plate a sach 765? i would use that than any other oem Pressure plate

looking forward to your build as im doing the same.

but unfortunetly my build is on Bimmerforums

ill be tuned in eating popcorn in the empty auditorium sike i kid

LOL thanks for the encouragement!

[r.martin]

I am unsure of the pressure plate, I purchased it based on dimensions, perhaps not the smartest idea.


The block is supposed to get machined this week........


The head was being assembled last I was at the shop.
Note: I did correct the builder on the use of the lock collars and shims as I had failed to provide the documentation.




And I believe the gearbox we now have is a Getrag 265 as it has a detachable bellhousing.



And there is one experimental idea that I am working on, that I am withholding details on until I am confident it will work, as I have seen two other threads where the OP posted about similar plans and then flamed out.

[r.martin]

here is a pic of the chassis as it sits.

[Tiit]

What a great project. Thank you for sharing.

[r.martin]

Thank you for the compliment, it really does help to have positive feedback from the community!

[r.martin]

Alright, so I have gotten a bit farther and feel that it may be best if I disclose my experiment, as to better draw on the community for any guidance you guys may have to offer.

The disclaimer here is that this is experimental and may not work, as I had mentioned others have flamed out while trying to do this. The second caveat is that this experiment will add potentially significant build time so please be patient as I want to get this right.

The back story is that I have been enamored with the Lancia Delta group B car since I knew of it's existence. Specifically the twincharged engine.

here is where we are at:

CNC cut intake flange.
I can provide these to anyone interested PM me.


The head will be ported to match


All new bearings and seals for the Eaton m90






Head with the correct lock collar setup


Blower body on the top plate for the custom manifold


The nightmare needle bearings...


Rotor test fit

[r.martin]

The eaton is nearly completely back together, and let me say this was a huge pain to do, for anyone else check and double check the drive gear alignment before pressing the second gear on. I had to press the damn rotor pack apart 4 times before getting everything to line up and spin with minimal effort, a good way to do this is to install the drive gear with the three pins prior to installing the slave gear. First press both rotors into the front bearing plate, install the cartridge in the body seating it fully into the needle bearings then install the second gear. Seating it into the needle bearings will allow everything to line up as it should then tap the second gear to the point where it partially meshes with the drive gear. Once you are at this point try spinning the blower to ensure that it is not jammed up. In my experience with this even a relatively small amount of misalignment on the gear caused the rotors to bind. Just go slow and keep checking that the assembly rotates freely. Once you are satisfied then take it to a press and fully seat the gear. I found that a hammer should only be used to initially position the secondary gear and when not using the press it walked on me resulting in rotor bind.

[r.martin]

The blower is 99% just have to install the bypass valve.




I ported the head today to match the new flange.

[r.martin]

I am kind of surprised that nobody has any input on this idea.

[r.martin]

So the damn supercharger had to come apart again. the tolerances are so tight. It spun freely until I torqued it down then jammed up, pressed the rotors down ~ .01" and now spins freely torqued.... God I'm dumb sometimes.

[tschultz]

Looks great, interested to see your intake!

[r.martin]

Looks great, interested to see your intake!

Thanks tschultz! A live audience is good motivation. I have suspension stuff showing up this week.

The engine shop says definitely this week the short block will be done. then I can get the ATI damper installed and scope out intake dimensions.

Cometic MLS gasket looks as though it will be delayed, but I will use factory gasket for mock up.

Is there anything that needs to be done to the gearbox internals that I should be aware of? And can anyone with more experience confirm that the previous photo of my transmission is a getrag 265? I see no indicator markings and can only note the detachable bellhousing.

[mitch5]

I have not seen many, roots type superchargerd m30. Will be interesting to see what you come up with on the intake, do you plan to maintain the stock injector location? The tricky part i imagine will be getting the intake with supercharger to align with the belt pulley, considering you are fabricating from scratch.

What made you decide to go with the supercharger since i assume(based on title) you initially planned to go turbo.

[r.martin]

I have not seen many, roots type superchargerd m30. Will be interesting to see what you come up with on the intake, do you plan to maintain the stock injector location? The tricky part i imagine will be getting the intake with supercharger to align with the belt pulley, considering you are fabricating from scratch.

What made you decide to go with the supercharger since i assume(based on title) you initially planned to go turbo.

I ended up having the forged pistons made, then ended up getting the MRT adaptor hub to fit an ATI damper, so I thought that I was not too far from the supercharger as we were already building a custom intake manifold. Still keeping the turbo hence the roots supercharger, as I was told that if we are going to feed the blower with the turbo that the best type to use would be roots.

[mitch5]

It sounds like you are doing a compound/twin charge boost setup, turbo feeding the blower. I would really recommend just sticking with the turbo, the plumbing in the e28 in will be a nightmare, controlling boost will tough and tuning will be equally as tough. You didnt mention engine management but your going to need a full standalone.

You can do some searching on compound setups but almost everyone ends up going back to a single turbo from the builds i have seen. This guy made it work for his m20(i think?) and it gives good insight into just how involved a setup like this is.

[r.martin]

It sounds like you are doing a compound/twin charge boost setup, turbo feeding the blower. I would really recommend just sticking with the turbo, the plumbing in the e28 in will be a nightmare, controlling boost will tough and tuning will be equally as tough. You didnt mention engine management but your going to need a full standalone.

You can do some searching on compound setups but almost everyone ends up going back to a single turbo from the builds i have seen. This guy made it work for his m20(i think?) and it gives good insight into just how involved a setup like this is.

Yea that is the idea at this point, we are going to run ms3 and I have an idea for reducing the plumbing complexity. I am too far down the rabbit hole at this point not to push forward. We will be using a speed density map and I have a reputable tuner working with me on the sensor side of things, he has a fair degree of confidence that the compound setup will work if managed with a speed/density formula.

The major hurdle at this point is the manifold and how to fit the blower in the most effective way.

[mitch5]

I'm all for someone trying something new and this will be a hell of a build so i hope you succeed.

As for the intake, going full custom is going to be alot of work, you have to get the injector angle right, figure out runner length then make a whole pleumn that will mount the super charger and align it with the crank. Goodntight made a really sweet one for his turbo build but i dont thick a log style with long straight runners will work for a super charger(too long a pulley).

I know you have the flange made but i would suggest using a stock intake and modifying it. you get all the correct geometry for the injectors and port angle and only have to worry about aligning it.

early m30 ljet intake then building a pleum to bolt on, i dont really know how large that blower is so it might get in the way of the hood. but that would keep the pully close. dowside is you would need to remove the blower to acess anything.

or

use a b34 style intake and lop off the back of it similar to what people do to a reverse style manifold, then i would make a nice template of 1/2 aluminum and weld that to the intake . The blower would sit sideways in this setup.

I would read up on intake design and runner length to make sure you are in the ballpark for how much air youll be putting through that engine. The biggest thing with fi setups is to have a large plenum volume that allows for somewhat even air distribution to the cylinders.

[r.martin]

*Duplicate post*

[r.martin]

I'm all for someone trying something new and this will be a hell of a build so i hope you succeed.

As for the intake, going full custom is going to be alot of work, you have to get the injector angle right, figure out runner length then make a whole pleumn that will mount the super charger and align it with the crank. Goodntight made a really sweet one for his turbo build but i dont thick a log style with long straight runners will work for a super charger(too long a pulley).

I know you have the flange made but i would suggest using a stock intake and modifying it. you get all the correct geometry for the injectors and port angle and only have to worry about aligning it.

early m30 ljet intake then building a pleum to bolt on, i dont really know how large that blower is so it might get in the way of the hood. but that would keep the pully close. dowside is you would need to remove the blower to acess anything.

or

use a b34 style intake and lop off the back of it similar to what people do to a reverse style manifold, then i would make a nice template of 1/2 aluminum and weld that to the intake . The blower would sit sideways in this setup.

I would read up on intake design and runner length to make sure you are in the ballpark for how much air youll be putting through that engine. The biggest thing with fi setups is to have a large plenum volume that allows for somewhat even air distribution to the cylinders.

Thank you very much for taking the time to provide such input. The manifold Is definitely turning out to be challenging. I am waiting until the engine is in the car to determine how to proceed. Taking a break from the suspension assembly to write this. I have been reading about the injector angle and you are completely correct that this is crucial.

Also the M90 produces 90 ci of displacement per revolution. The current pulley that I have is 4.25" and my ATI damper is 7.5". My math tells me that for each revolution of the crank I'll be getting just over 1.75 revs of the blower therefor ~158ci (~2589cc) of displacement per crank revolution. I feel this is fairly low boost from the blower. Would I be correct in thinking this? our displacement is essentially stock 3.2L

[mitch5]

Speaking purely from a point of the super charger its a simple calculation. Here is a website to do the math for you
http://www.performancetrends.com/Calcul ... ulator.php

10 psi is what i would expect at some max rpm , to some circles that is low boost(dsm) but other guys (v8) may consider that high boost. 10 psi is reasonable for the m30 with studs.

but boost does not directly correlate to engine power(airflow)

also that math doesnt tell you much, doesnt account for how your engine flows, doesnt account for that turbo you plan to stick on.

I would prefer to make a calculator in excel that allows me to plot everything in terms of rpm with calculations done in cfm. You have some fixed constants like displacment of the sc and engine but you dont have a turbo so that is variable.

heres how i might do it, could be totally wrong so i would research

start with a power goal
figure out required airflow for powergoal, account for power losses
determine how you want to make that power, you want it to be low end and streetable or high rpm
Things can get real complicated if you were going to grind a custom cam but if your using a stock cam then you know where the engine is at its max flow.
i have never designed a compound setup so i would start with the turbo and size it for what your goal is, so maybe a large turbo ran at low boost with lots of airflow
determine what turbo you will use and grab the compressor map, i imagine this will be trial and error
the tricky part will then be balancing the pulley size of the sc and the wastegate pressure of the turbo to get the desired airflow to the engine. This is where i imagine tunning will be a bitch.

I'm missing more details on this and could probably go on an engineering ramble. My opinion though is to ditch the sc and just keep the turbo, you can easily make 500 hp with a turbo. Typing all of that made me realize there is no reason you would need two sources of compressing air for an m30 unless you were trying to break 1000 hp.

[r.martin]

Again Mitch, thank you for taking the time to contribute.

My tuner echoed much of what you said, that this motor could easily produce 500hp with the turbo alone and that there would be some complexities when it comes to tuning a compound setup. I consider the decision of how to go about achieving that number similar to a comparison of Casio vs Blacpain, both achieve excellent results and perform the same operation, but one makes a statement that is absent in the other. I'm kind of an eccentric guy and just can't get this bug out of my head, so we have to at least see if it is possible.

Here is the damper I will be using, 7.5" for an SBC

Adapter hub with integrated trigger wheel from MRT

Damper to pulley comparison.


I was under the impression that the m30 head prevented the motor from reaching anywhere close to 1000hp, is this truth?

Here is the update on the suspension, I pulled a late night and got the front struts nearly finished. Many of the roads where I live are in poor condition so I had to go with something that offered adjustability.

Tacked together

The top mount.

Painted and test fit.